About defense mechanics...

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
19 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

About defense mechanics...

berzerk dragon
This post was updated on .
Original Post wrote
Does anybody know exactly how they work? I wanted to do some mathcrafting with rifles, then realized I wasn't able to add defense into my calculations D:
Since nobody has done it already (or at least not that we know of), I went ahead and did some testing on my own. The data itself can be found here, here, and here.


berzerk dragon wrote
Just did some data collection with Shun, posting results. Data was gathered via scan mode readouts, with two mechs standing still next to each other. The data is all for KE defense/damage (the other damage types should work under the same rules).


From this, we can gather the following conclusions:

1. Increasing defense lowers damage by a constant rate.
2. The defense rate for effective shots appears to be about 10% damage reduction per 500 points of defense.
3. The defense rate for ineffective shots appears to be about 2% damage reduction per 500 points of defense. This is in addition to a ~70% "ineffective" reduction.



Prototype Defense Formulas:
(P = Attack Power  D = Defense Value)

EFFECTIVE SHOTS
Damage = P(1 - 0.0002D)

INEFFECTIVE SHOTS
Damage = P(0.3 - 0.00004D)
berzerk dragon wrote
Did another testing suite with TE defense. All methods remain the same.

This, in conjunction with the previous data, leads to the following information:

1. All defenses are verified to work under the same mechanics, the defense formulas are universal.
2. The minimum damage any weapon can deal is 10%.
3. Effective shots hit minimum damage at 4500 defense, ineffective at 5000
4. Because of this, ineffective shots will actually deal more damage (in terms of percentage of original attack power) than effective shots between ~4450 and 5000 defense.
5. Any defense over 5000 is completely wasted. Any defense over 4500 is wasted on weapons that have more than 4500 attack power.
berzerk dragon wrote
Armor Break has the following properties:

1. Armor Break is applied when the impact force of a weapon exceeds the target's Recoil Resistance.
2. There is no visual cue that Armor Break has been applied.
3. Armor Break reduces your defense by 20% for the purpose of determining weapon effectiveness. All damage is calculated using the original defense values.
4. Armor Break lasts for one(1) second.
5. Any weapon can apply Armor Break as long as its impact force exceeds Recoil Resistance, regardless of (in)effectiveness.
6. Most energy weapons cannot apply Armor Break because they have no impact force.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: About defense mechanics...

Sash
Administrator
I don't know entirely the math behind it, but it appears to follow the basis of "Shoot bullet, consider travel time and velocity, hit target, impart stats, stagger target, deal damage". "mathcrafting" isn't my thing, but from my understanding of it, the round hits and imparts it's stats onto your AC, which modifys the stats according to your own stats. Bullet hits, the bullet says it's gonna hit for this much, your armor says that it's gonna subtract this ammount, and the bullet says ok and takes away your AP. In some cases, with high armor and low damage, that 'Ineffective' message shows up to say that the bullet is not hitting for full-ish damage due to either target armor or velocity. I have no idea how those cooperate, but the result is reduced damage from 1/4 to 1/2 in some cases. Now, sometimes the damage will do WAY more than your armor can block. In this case, I think that it 'Breaks' your armor. In the case of Cannon type weapons, they normally deal more damage than you could ever hope to block. This seems to cause the round to ignore your armor and deal it's damage as if you didn't have any.

In summary,
damage >  armor : Take full-ish damage
damage < armor : Get funky damage results
damage far > armor : Take a shitload of damage
damage far < armor : It's like nothing happened

Now, in the case of rifles, you're proably just going to see somewhat above armor and somewhat below armor on the damage, meaning you will hit for an average of full damage on all targets in your optimal range. With Battle Rifles, ALL THE CALCULATING GOES OUT THE WINDOW. They impart damage regardless of velocity, annoy the heck out of you with 2000+ damage, and CE armor is either 2200+ or like 800ish, so all your bullets will be hitting for weird ammounts, if not totally obliterating your target. TE weapons, well... I won't even go there right now.
Light can be just as blinding as Darkness. Bring some Sunglasses.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: About defense mechanics...

Dracheseele
In reply to this post by berzerk dragon
As far as I'm aware, no one has done a really in-depth defense study. Going by the in game graph though, Defense sets the 'angle' of damage. If you exceed the attack power of a weapon, it sets damage to a much smaller angle. This why there's a big jump on the graph. So more defense always helps, but if you can exceed the attack of a weapon it helps more.

Some examples though, the test mid (around 2700KE defense i think?) reduced a 3100 attack seidenbaum to around 1500 damage. around 4000 TE defense reduced a 10k attack Karasawa fully charged to about 2000. Both of these were point blank, so no loss of damage from distance.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: About defense mechanics...

shade
In reply to this post by berzerk dragon
I've been testing this pretty extensivly. I pretty much found out 3 rules.

If the weapon damage is less then the armor it will do 1/4th the damage.
The min damage any gun can do at optimal range is about 10% of the total weapon damage reguardless of defence.
If the weapon damage is more then the defence, the first 1k defence cuts damage in about 2/3rds to 1/2, the next 1k (2k armor) cuts it in 1/3 where 3k armor cuts it in 1/4th of the damage.

If you shoot someone with a gun that does 999 to a guy with 1000 armor, he will take 250 damage
If you fire a gun that does 1,000 damage on a guy with 4,000 armor, it will do 100 damage
So if you have 1,000 KE armor and someone shoots you with a gun thats 1001 damage, you take 700

All of these numbers are rough, but it works out. I noticed that you lose less damage at higher numbers. IE 100 attack vs 101 def loses alot more attack then 1000 attack vs 1001 armor.

So when building a mech it's wise to figure out the weapons you see in battle, and what there max damage is, and plan to armor around them. The differnce between 1750 and 1770 damage to 1767 damage tanzy's is about 600 damage per shot, so aim for max damage of weapon vs all around resists. Also though arcadides PMG's can get to around 850, 900 resist reduces them to only 150 or so damage, which doesn't explain why the PMG's do so much damage, unless the explosion damage ignores armor. It also doesn't explain why gatlins guns arn't doing better at close ranges.
I
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: About defense mechanics...

Dracheseele
In reply to this post by berzerk dragon
I don't think its that the explosion damage ignores armor, Its because the explosion lingers and does damage continually for a period of time. Pulseguns have a base explosion damage of 150 attack over 30 time units. PMGs are 30 over 15 time units. Plasmas are 150 over 45 time.

And Gatlings just don't reload fast enough imo.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: About defense mechanics...

berzerk dragon
In reply to this post by berzerk dragon
It's probably EN amps. A single amaterasu will bring an 850 arachide up to 935 or so. Dual izanamis will jack up the power to just under 1150.

I appreciate the input. I'll try to get some testing in tomorrow (not that I don't believe you guys, just that mathcrafting kinda demands definite numbers. Rough estimates are fine and all, but they simply don't cut it when the calculator hits the scene). Hopefully, I can figure out something.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: About defense mechanics...

Dracheseele
In reply to this post by berzerk dragon
Best I can tell you is find someone to help you out, and just shoot at various defense numbers till you figure out some pattern.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: About defense mechanics...

Parry
In reply to this post by berzerk dragon
Muzzle velocity also factors into defense formulas.
"Those who seek absolute power are the absolute corruptible."
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: About defense mechanics...

berzerk dragon
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by berzerk dragon
Just did some data collection with Shun, posting results. Data was gathered via scan mode readouts, with two mechs standing still next to each other. The data is all for KE defense/damage (the other damage types should work under the same rules).

A few things to note:
1. Numbers in red are "ineffective." Numbers in green are "effective."
2. The whole numbers are the raw damage readouts, the numbers in parenthesis represent how much the raw damage is (in percents) compared to the original attack power.
3. The percentages are truncated (NOT rounded) at two decimal places.
4. I realize that I put the "Attack Power" and "Defense Value" labels in the wrong spots. I didn't save that chart, so fixing it is more work than it's worth.





From this, we can gather the following conclusions:

1. Increasing defense lowers damage by a constant rate.
2. The defense rate for effective shots appears to be about 10% damage reduction per 500 points of defense.
3. The defense rate for ineffective shots appears to be about 2% damage reduction per 500 points of defense. This is in addition to a ~70% "ineffective" reduction.



Prototype Defense Formulas:
(P = Attack Power  D = Defense Value)

EFFECTIVE SHOTS
Damage = P(1 - 0.0002D)

INEFFECTIVE SHOTS
Damage = P(0.3 - 0.00004D)

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: About defense mechanics...

Shun001
In reply to this post by berzerk dragon
This information should be stickied since the question comes up so often.
今宵は新月であったことに
すでに、昼と夜の境界は私の手の内に
あることに
This is the night of the new moon.
I hold the border between night and noon in the palm of my hand.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: About defense mechanics...

Zio IV
Shun001 wrote
This information should be stickied since the question comes up so often.
Second for sticky. I'll be sure to help out with testing in the future as well, Berzerk. We could all use this information.
Asketh Ky to Sol, "Heaven or Hell?" and Sol, being of the Gear did say "Let's Rock."
-Roman Cancels 1:14
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: About defense mechanics...

GodlyPerfection
Administrator
In reply to this post by berzerk dragon
Update the OP with the info zerk and I'll be sure to throw a sticky on this.


URL: http://i55.tinypic.com/13yi6va.png

Wanna help spread the word about ReachingPerfection.com at other sites? Use the image above and link back to us.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: About defense mechanics...

berzerk dragon
In reply to this post by berzerk dragon
OP updated with conclusions. BTW, is it possible to link to a specific post? I couldn't figure it out...
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: About defense mechanics...

GodlyPerfection
Administrator
In reply to this post by berzerk dragon
Yep go to the "More" option in the post menu and hit "Permalink".


URL: http://i55.tinypic.com/13yi6va.png

Wanna help spread the word about ReachingPerfection.com at other sites? Use the image above and link back to us.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: About defense mechanics...

berzerk dragon
In reply to this post by berzerk dragon
Much obliged :)
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: About defense mechanics...

berzerk dragon
Did another testing suite with TE defense. All methods remain the same.

The data:



This, in conjunction with the previous data, leads to the following information:

1. All defenses are verified to work under the same mechanics, the defense formulas are universal.
2. The minimum damage any weapon can deal is 10%.
3. Effective shots hit minimum damage at 4500 defense, ineffective at 5000
4. Because of this, ineffective shots will actually deal more damage (in terms of percentage of original attack power) than effective shots between ~4450 and 5000 defense.
5. Any defense over 5000 is completely wasted. Any defense over 4500 is wasted on weapons that have more than 4500 attack power.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: About defense mechanics...

berzerk dragon
In reply to this post by berzerk dragon
New research done on the Armor Break status. Armor Break has the following properties:

1. Armor Break is applied when the impact force of a weapon exceeds the target's Recoil Resistance.
2. There is no visual cue that Armor Break has been applied.
3. Armor Break reduces your defense by 20% for the purpose of determining weapon effectiveness. All damage is calculated using the original defense values.
4. Armor Break lasts for one(1) second.
5. Any weapon can apply Armor Break as long as its impact force exceeds Recoil Resistance, regardless of (in)effectiveness.
6. Most energy weapons cannot apply Armor Break because they have no impact force.


Testing was done in two stages: Properties and Causes.

Properties testing involved inducing Armor Break status with kicks, while looking at scan mode values. When Armor Break is applied, scan mode will read defense values as being 20% lower than they actually are. It was noted that the weapon that was previously barely ineffective became effective, however the weapon that was very ineffective remained ineffective. The damage of the very ineffective and previously effective weapons remained unchanged, the now effective weapon dealt effective damage at a rate equivalent to that granted by the original defense rating.

Cause testing went through several iterations. At first, it was thought that Armor Break was applied when enough damage was dealt at once. This was disproved when a laser cannon broke the armor of a 5000 defense tank. Then it was theorized that impact force caused armor break. 4 weapons with 483, 508, 1836, and 2202 impact force respectively were used against ACs with the highest and lowest possible Stability and Recoil Resistance possible. The AC with the highest Stability and Recoil Resistance (1192 and 2129 respectively) only had its armor broken by the 2202 impact force weapon. The AC with the lowest Stability and Recoil Resistance (970 and 503 respectively) had its armor broken by the 508 and 1836 impact force weapons, the 2202 impact force weapon happened to be a pile driver and killed the AC instantly :x
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: About defense mechanics...

Taurus
In reply to this post by berzerk dragon
not sure if I was wrong, but laser rifle and laser cannon are only 2 type of EN weapon that had impact force. and that means there are also do armor break if that gun from those types had 1500 impact force at least.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: About defense mechanics...

Zio IV
Taurus wrote
not sure if I was wrong, but laser rifle and laser cannon are only 2 type of EN weapon that had impact force. and that means there are also do armor break if that gun from those types had 1500 impact force at least.
You would be correct. Laser weaponry can stagger and break armor. Hence why Berzerk says "most energy weapons".

Also, you don't need 1500 impact force to cause armor break. In theory, you could have an underweight tank with ~1700 recoil resistance, necessitating that much impact force to overcome it. On the other hand, my AC has ~680 recoil resistance, so you only need that much impact force or more to break my armor (though my defenses are so damn low almost every weapon gets no damage boost, lol)
Asketh Ky to Sol, "Heaven or Hell?" and Sol, being of the Gear did say "Let's Rock."
-Roman Cancels 1:14