Halo 4's Forge: Early Prep?

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Halo 4's Forge: Early Prep?

Randy 355
This post was updated on .
Hello RP! I've been getting somewhat back into Halo: Reach's Forge a bit and enjoying the idea of making new maps, but, it is now getting late in Reach's... what you might call "forge cycle". So it's hard to find incentive to create new maps for Reach, especially after this little excerpt from today's Weekly Update from BS Angel:

"Halo 4 Forge, like all aspects of the game, will have significant improvements, changes and/or overhauls. We will be talking about those later this summer. I will, however, ask people to retain some semblance of dignity when imagining infinite tools that allow them to build a universe from scratch. To be clear, this will be a significant improvement in functionality and results, but it will continue the tradition of Forge’s ease of use, scale and scope. But I also won’t be a buzzkill. It will be cool."

This got me really excited. It makes me want to get an early jump on things, and I thought this would be the best place to get opinions. Basically, what can we do to prepare? There are so many things to take into account! We have what we've seen from the MLG gameplay videos. We have new features such as AA's (Promethean Vision is big here), Custom Loadouts, new weapons, Care Packages, etc.

I know I am jumping the gun quite early, and our options are limited, but let's here it. What are your thoughts, RP?
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Re: Halo 4's Forge: Early Prep?

Der Flatulator
Definitely start planning your map design loosely. Don't know what else to say, but I'm excited.

I've been sketching up Haven today. Slow progress (I'm horrible at Sketch Up), but I've got the very basic layout down:
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Re: Halo 4's Forge: Early Prep?

GodlyPerfection
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In reply to this post by Randy 355
Well it is good to hear you are getting the jump early. I HIGHLY suggest learning sketchup to plan your designs as it offers a flexibility and ease of use that nothing else can. ;)

Here are some screenshots of two maps that I've been working on as of late. Both are definitely not finished... Dishonored is the closest to a full design than Think Thrice is. Both are more than likely just code names right now and could still under-go a lot of changes. I think we should start encouraging everyone to get heavy into Sketchup so we can all prepare as a group.

Dishonored


Dishonored is my first attempt at something asymmetrical. It is VERY vertical. It uses Headlong teleporters (where you can see the other end), it uses man cannons all over the place, it has 3 "double" lifts where the side you come out of is based on he side you go in. There are 7 balconies to fight across and thanks to the curve of the map each balcony also cannot attack certain other balconies, etc. There are tons of movement options that are hard to convey strictly through sketchup. I actually have a rough draft of this in Reach's forge.










Think Thrice


Think Thrice is my attempt to take the gimmic of Think Twice's center and make it a more integrated feature into the map. The center features regular Think Twice tunnels, but the whole outside of the interior are half of one of those tunnels to allow you to weave between floors. The last picture shows the map without roofing on the outsides. I still haven't built the outside platforms with man cannons yet.









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Re: Halo 4's Forge: Early Prep?

Der Flatulator
GodlyPerfection wrote
Well it is good to hear you are getting the jump early. I HIGHLY suggest learning sketchup to plan your designs as it offers a flexibility and ease of use that nothing else can. ;)

Here are some screenshots of two maps that I've been working on as of late. Both are definitely not finished... Dishonored is the closest to a full design than Think Thrice is. Both are more than likely just code names right now and could still under-go a lot of changes. I think we should start encouraging everyone to get heavy into Sketchup so we can all prepare as a group.
Definitely agree. SketchUp is a great planning tool, and definitely quicker than the Forge (most of the time).

May as well dump a few pics of Haven. Definitely an interesting map.











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Re: Halo 4's Forge: Early Prep?

Randy 355
In reply to this post by Randy 355
Sketch Up... is officially on my computer. Just toying with it a bit, it's a very interesting program! This will be great for a simple start.

Your new maps look pretty cool, Godly. As does that mockup of Haven, Der Flat. Maybe we could do some forge mockups in Reach and maybe even try them on a pseudo Halo 4 slayer gametype. That's what I plan on doing for anything I throw together. We could do basic tests for lines of sight, spawns, objective, and other basic gameplay mechanics. Simply put, we'd be the most prepared forge community for Halo 4ge! :P
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Re: Halo 4's Forge: Early Prep?

GodlyPerfection
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In reply to this post by Randy 355
I actually have Dishonored rough drafted on Reach right now. Think Thrice may not be buildable in reach because of the weird shapes.


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Re: Halo 4's Forge: Early Prep?

noklu
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In reply to this post by Randy 355
I seem to remember a very very early version of dishonored, Godly, from some months ago. Am I right in saying that this style of map has been floating about your head for a while? And, from what I see, it seems it has the best kind of asymmetry - logical asymmetry. Normally, there'd be concerns about confusion and path-finding, but I suspect not so with this one, as I expect from you...I do think you are one of the better forgers at intuitive paths.
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Re: Halo 4's Forge: Early Prep?

GodlyPerfection
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noklu wrote
I seem to remember a very very early version of dishonored, Godly, from some months ago. Am I right in saying that this style of map has been floating about your head for a while? And, from what I see, it seems it has the best kind of asymmetry - logical asymmetry. Normally, there'd be concerns about confusion and path-finding, but I suspect not so with this one, as I expect from you...I do think you are one of the better forgers at intuitive paths.
Yep... I came up with the style of map while working in the lagoon. It has been through several iterations. The rough drafting in the lagoon really helped get the initial style down. Then I started building the map in sketchup using Hexagonal pillars. If you look quickly the map is based on an "inner" building with a slightly curved "outer" building. Well with Hexagonal pillars the two ends of the outer building were MUCH too far apart to be viable and would have required more quick travel between the outskirts and the center of the outer building. The next iteration used Pentagonal pillars to reduce the angle at which the inner building connect to the outskirts of the outer building. This made the distance from one end of the outer building to the other MUCH more manageable and feasible for regular travel and for more dance floor rather than just using man cannons/teleporters everywhere. I still have to wall part of the Reach rough drafted version and I've changed a few things with the design that I haven't done on sketchup yet. Right now I'm busy building something that I'm very proud of. ;)


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Re: Halo 4's Forge: Early Prep?

Randy 355
In reply to this post by Randy 355
Alright, well I have been trying to create a really broken down version of Halo 4's basic Team Slayer in Reach so we can use it to test new map designs for Halo 4 within Reach. It's already proven a bit difficult. Maybe this can be a team effort.

I am starting with loadouts. We can't have custom ones, obviously, so I am basing them somewhat on the loadouts we have seen from the MLG videos:

Loadout 1

Storm Rifle - Hardlight Shield - Magnum - Plasma Grenade - AA Efficiency - Mobility

Loadout 2

BR - Thruster Pack - Covenant Carbine - Plasma Nade - Firepower - Ammo

Loadout 3

BR - Hardlight Shield - Magnum - Frag Grenade - Resupply - Awareness

Loadout 4

DMR - Thrusters - Assault Rifle - Frag - Firepower - Sensor

Loadout 5

Covenant Carbine - Hardlight Shield - Plasma Pistol - Plasma Nade - AA Efficiency - Awareness


Now, these don't really translate well into Reach's sandbox, so I'm gonna make a few modifications. For one, all AAs will be Sprint. Everyone will have sprint in Halo 4, and that will change gameplay a lot. I think it's good to have it this way, as the AAs in Halo 4 are gonna be far different as it is. As far as weapons in each loadout... I have yet to figure that one out. I am thinking I will only have about 3 loadouts, and even them out between precision weapons, auto weapons, stickys and frags.

As far as gameplay, it seems to me that you die a bit quicker, but also regain shields faster. I'll try to compensate for this in the gametype.

What do you guys have in mind? I have a lot of room for error.
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Re: Halo 4's Forge: Early Prep?

GodlyPerfection
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Atlas has been trying this for a while he's been using invasion slayer to replicate power  weapon drops. Try using sprint for all loadouts with  dmr and assault  rifle with classic setting weapon damage and movement speeds.

On Jun 18, 2012 7:24 PM, "Randy 355 [via Reaching Perfection]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Alright, well I have been trying to create a really broken down version of Halo 4's basic Team Slayer in Reach so we can use it to test new map designs for Halo 4 within Reach. It's already proven a bit difficult. Maybe this can be a team effort.

I am starting with loadouts. We can't have custom ones, obviously, so I am basing them somewhat on the loadouts we have seen from the MLG videos:

Loadout 1

Storm Rifle - Hardlight Shield - Magnum - Plasma Grenade - AA Efficiency - Mobility

Loadout 2

BR - Thruster Pack - Covenant Carbine - Plasma Nade - Firepower - Ammo

Loadout 3

BR - Hardlight Shield - Magnum - Frag Grenade - Resupply - Awareness

Loadout 4

DMR - Thrusters - Assault Rifle - Frag - Firepower - Sensor

Loadout 5

Covenant Carbine - Hardlight Shield - Plasma Pistol - Plasma Nade - AA Efficiency - Awareness


Now, these don't really translate well into Reach's sandbox, so I'm gonna make a few modifications. For one, all AAs will be Sprint. Everyone will have sprint in Halo 4, and that will change gameplay a lot. I think it's good to have it this way, as the AAs in Halo 4 are gonna be far different as it is. As far as weapons in each loadout... I have yet to figure that one out. I am thinking I will only have about 3 loadouts, and even them out between precision weapons, auto weapons, stickys and frags.

As far as gameplay, it seems to me that you die a bit quicker, but also regain shields faster. I'll try to compensate for this in the gametype.

What do you guys have in mind? I have a lot of room for error.
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Re: Halo 4's Forge: Early Prep?

external memory
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Randy 355
I've always found rotationally symmetrical maps interesting, and there's just so many paths in that Adrift map. Really looking forward to that one.

May just have to try my hand at premaking it to scratch that itch.
EXEM
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Re: Halo 4's Forge: Early Prep?

Der Flatulator
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Randy 355
Premake. That's the word I was looking for! lol
I threw the map together in Forge in a day, it looks pretty damn horrible, but the layout is right. I think the scale is about 110/120% larger, by accident, but it seems to feel alright with 120% movement speed, 125% jump height.

You have NO idea how annoying it is building a giant semi-circle in Forge. Gotta overlap 5x5 flats. Looks so damn ugly. I've got 0 blocks, 0 decorative, 0 walls and a handful of inclines left :P













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Re: Halo 4's Forge: Early Prep?

FeanorOnForge
In reply to this post by Randy 355
I'm looking forward to and hoping for some new pieces/shapes atm- I want to remake a couple of maps I started but couldnt finish cos I kept having to use several pieces where 1 should have done the job and ran out or walls ramps and blocks. Partly my own laziness in not going over and refitting bits to free up blocks but I spent days building half an invasion map and got amazing feedback on the first 2 staging areas but couldnt face redoing it all to enable me to construct the final area well, so soon I can just make it from scratch!

hhmmm how does the idea of a customisable flat/block sound? as in you select flat and just type in 6 by 4 for example and it generates it? feasable?

-Feanor
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Re: Halo 4's Forge: Early Prep?

GodlyPerfection
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In reply to this post by Randy 355
In order to have a resizable block they either needed a good scalable texture, or a repeating texture (like sandbox blocks), or make a textureatlas for all the different sizes.


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Re: Halo 4's Forge: Early Prep?

Der Flatulator
GodlyPerfection wrote
In order to have a resizable block they either needed a good scalable texture, or a repeating texture (like sandbox blocks), or make a textureatlas for all the different sizes.
I vaguely remember Ferrex saying that it wasn't plausible for Reach due to engine constraints. Remember you're essentially generating terrain in a fashioned manner by creating a block, and each iteration of a block (1x1, 1x2, etc) needs to be stored on disc. If you were to have scalable blocks that would require an infinite amount of storage.

In order to get around this they would have to change the fundamentals of how the Forge operates, and I doubt they'll do that.
Even if you try a basic a universal block, which we can toggle width depth and height between a fixed enum, perhaps
[[width 0.25, 0.5, 1, 2, 4, 5],
[height 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10],
[length1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10]]
Which would replace the block with a new block behind the scenes. This would require a total of 816 models if I calculated that correctly.
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Re: Halo 4's Forge: Early Prep?

GodlyPerfection
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Der Flatulator wrote
I vaguely remember Ferrex saying that it wasn't plausible for Reach due to engine constraints. Remember you're essentially generating terrain in a fashioned manner by creating a block, and each iteration of a block (1x1, 1x2, etc) needs to be stored on disc. If you were to have scalable blocks that would require an infinite amount of storage.

In order to get around this they would have to change the fundamentals of how the Forge operates, and I doubt they'll do that.
Even if you try a basic a universal block, which we can toggle width depth and height between a fixed enum, perhaps
[[width 0.25, 0.5, 1, 2, 4, 5],
[height 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10],
[length1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10]]
Which would replace the block with a new block behind the scenes. This would require a total of 816 models if I calculated that correctly.
Which makes no since because even with a static model you should easily be able to go in and modify the vertices with the user selection and then adjust your texture accordingly using a texture atlas to grab the new texture for the resized faces or use a tiling texture where the block size wouldn't matter or use an LOD system with textures to adjust which one is used based on size.


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Re: Halo 4's Forge: Early Prep?

FeanorOnForge
In reply to this post by Randy 355
Hhhmmm and here I was thinking they could just have 1 by 1 flats and have them added side by side then fixed into 1 block (assuming ofc the constraint on only whole number blocks) but I see this isnt so simple lol
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Re: Halo 4's Forge: Early Prep?

external memory
In reply to this post by Randy 355
I think it's much more simple, actually.

Do I really need to point out you can place and define the shape of kill and spawn volumes in Reach's forge, and it already scales/tiles the texture and effects for displaying the volume? So there's no reason the system shouldn't be able to do this. Bungie just decided not to add a custom block maker/editor for Reach. If there isn't one in Halo 4 I can't imagine what they mean by "a significant improvement."
EXEM
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Re: Halo 4's Forge: Early Prep?

grimcreepr
external memory wrote
I think it's much more simple, actually.

Do I really need to point out you can place and define the shape of kill and spawn volumes in Reach's forge, and it already scales/tiles the texture and effects for displaying the volume? So there's no reason the system shouldn't be able to do this. Bungie just decided not to add a custom block maker/editor for Reach. If there isn't one in Halo 4 I can't imagine what they mean by "a significant improvement."
A terrain editor, copy and paste, undo. I'm still convinced that they are just hyping it up, and the "significant improvements" are actually going to be more subtle things.
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Re: Halo 4's Forge: Early Prep?

external memory
grimcreepr wrote
A terrain editor, copy and paste, undo. I'm still convinced that they are just hyping it up, and the "significant improvements" are actually going to be more subtle things.
I agree, copypasta would be nice, but you must realize it doesn't improve on anything but time investment. IMO, there's been enough done on that point already compared to other facets that could be improved. This and a terrain editor are still more complicated than the simple ability to generate a simple volume of a user-specified size with hit detection. Shit, I'm not even talking about cylinders here, I only mean a 6-sided block that could range anywhere from .01 x 100 y 100 z to 100 x 100 y .01 z. And as I said, we already have it with kill volumes, they have hit detection, just no "physics".

Well, anyway, it would be great if folks who knew more about the nuts and bolts of custom map editors could weigh in on this, all of this is my layman's interpretation and assumptions. Still, custom kill volumes vs. custom blocks, what's the big difference?
EXEM
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