What if your map doesn't work?

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What if your map doesn't work?

icycoolx
I thought about this question last night. So when you guys make a map in a game and it doesn't look good or doesn't well what do you do? Do you restart it, scrap it entirely, just leave it as it is? and does it really depend on the game?
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Re: What if your map doesn't work?

noklu
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Well, when I forged, I regularly gave up. Mainly because I was always more interested in looking at what other people were doing - therefore interrupted work on my own stuff - and because I wholly detested the finicky placement of stuff. I never had an intuitive feel for forge objects, but I do think I have somewhat passable intuitions on broader level design and theory.
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Know this and fear.

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Re: What if your map doesn't work?

amber
very nice post
amber
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Re: What if your map doesn't work?

mrgreenwithagun
In reply to this post by icycoolx
I was forging a map recently to practice some new concepts in level design, but along the way realized that the three main structures don't look anything like each other. So I scrapped it and started over.

Sometimes I start over just to reposition a structure, even if I have to move it only a couple of units.
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Re: What if your map doesn't work?

Psychosis687
In reply to this post by icycoolx
If something doesn't work, I either delete that portion or find a way to make it work.
DavidJCobb: "He was in Sniper Chat."
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Re: What if your map doesn't work?

FuN Fortress
In reply to this post by icycoolx
Slap more objects down until it works. That's my general method, anyway. I rarely ever go into a map with a design already thought out or drawn up. Usually, I just get in there and start with a few pieces and see where I end up. That's if I'm in Forge, anyway. If it's something like UEd, it's usually a little more cut-and-dry, and when a map 'doesn't work' it's less of a 'geometry, flow, design-is-balls'-issue, and more of a 'map is crashing, map has BSP cuts, maphasdisappearedbyTaloswhy'-type of issue. And then it becomes an OCD-induced headache until it's fixed.

After about five years of mapping, I'd say that it definitely depends on the game. If I'm in something like Forge, I'm more inclined to simply scrap the project and slap down objects (like I mentioned before) until I get something that doesn't make me vomit. It's just so easy to delete objects without having to worry about literally breaking the map you're working on, where in something like UEd, deleting one object (on accident or with intent) could mean getting a nasty crash for hours until you realize that you shouldn't have deleted what you had deleted.

With something like UEd, I have the freedom to approach my ideas knowing that there's no limits (practically speaking) that I can reach in terms of size and object count. I have an easier time deleting and reshaping things, because I have the freedom to make nearly anything I want to, instead of choosing from a selection of cubes and objects.

That's my take on it, anyway.
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Re: What if your map doesn't work?

noklu
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FuN Fortress wrote
Slap more objects down until it works. That's my general method, anyway. I rarely ever go into a map with a design already thought out or drawn up. Usually, I just get in there and start with a few pieces and see where I end up. That's if I'm in Forge, anyway. If it's something like UEd, it's usually a little more cut-and-dry, and when a map 'doesn't work' it's less of a 'geometry, flow, design-is-balls'-issue, and more of a 'map is crashing, map has BSP cuts, maphasdisappearedbyTaloswhy'-type of issue. And then it becomes an OCD-induced headache until it's fixed.

After about five years of mapping, I'd say that it definitely depends on the game. If I'm in something like Forge, I'm more inclined to simply scrap the project and slap down objects (like I mentioned before) until I get something that doesn't make me vomit. It's just so easy to delete objects without having to worry about literally breaking the map you're working on, where in something like UEd, deleting one object (on accident or with intent) could mean getting a nasty crash for hours until you realize that you shouldn't have deleted what you had deleted.

With something like UEd, I have the freedom to approach my ideas knowing that there's no limits (practically speaking) that I can reach in terms of size and object count. I have an easier time deleting and reshaping things, because I have the freedom to make nearly anything I want to, instead of choosing from a selection of cubes and objects.

That's my take on it, anyway.
How important, to you, is starting a design with a full-fledged idea? Or do you prefer to just wing at least part of it? Sometimes when I'm working on a creative project, whether that is design-related or not, I come in with an idea that's fully formed in my head and then, on paper or screen, it's a god-awful mess. Other times, I start with a bare nugget and it wriggles around into something beautiful.

Also, I haven't used UEd - is it good as everyone's been saying? (May be appropriate in a new thread; start one if you like.)
The otters are coming with whiskers honed to razor blades.
Know this and fear.

Email me at xnoklu[at]gmail.com should you need to contact me.
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Re: What if your map doesn't work?

FuN Fortress
noklu wrote
How important, to you, is starting a design with a full-fledged idea? Or do you prefer to just wing at least part of it?
Not very, is my answer to that question. I just start with something and kind of go for it. There have only been a few times in which I've actually laid out a proper drawing. I mostly just wing it.

noklu wrote
Sometimes when I'm working on a creative project, whether that is design-related or not, I come in with an idea that's fully formed in my head and then, on paper or screen, it's a god-awful mess. Other times, I start with a bare nugget and it wriggles around into something beautiful.
Yeah, usually I never go in with any sort of idea. I just play around with things until I randomly get something that I feel I can build around. It's not like I DON'T come up with a design in my head, but I don't START with one. I mess around until I get an interesting couple of shapes or configuration of objects, and then I go into planning a design around it

noklu wrote
Also, I haven't used UEd - is it good as everyone's been saying? (May be appropriate in a new thread; start one if you like.)
I don't really feel the need to start a brand-new thread for talk about UEd, as I don't feel as if talk about any specific editor or engine is undermining what this thread is about. As far as how I feel about it; love it, breath it, romance it. UEd2 is what I started mapping on, and that was back when I was around fourteen or fifteen, so I've been on the ball for a while. Out of Forge, Hammer and UEd, I have to say that I prefer UEd over the others. It's relatively simple, and anybody just starting to design on a 'big boy' editor can get the hang of it with ease. There's a lot more freedom that comes with it over Forge, in terms of the design of the map itself. I think its shortfalling has to be in that it's harder these days to 'distribute' your maps on it than it is for something as simple as Forge. Forge is pretty dumbed down in that respect. Not that it doesn't totally work in its favor.
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Re: What if your map doesn't work?

noklu
Administrator
FuN Fortress wrote
I don't really feel the need to start a brand-new thread for talk about UEd, as I don't feel as if talk about any specific editor or engine is undermining what this thread is about. As far as how I feel about it; love it, breath it, romance it. UEd2 is what I started mapping on, and that was back when I was around fourteen or fifteen, so I've been on the ball for a while. Out of Forge, Hammer and UEd, I have to say that I prefer UEd over the others. It's relatively simple, and anybody just starting to design on a 'big boy' editor can get the hang of it with ease. There's a lot more freedom that comes with it over Forge, in terms of the design of the map itself. I think its shortfalling has to be in that it's harder these days to 'distribute' your maps on it than it is for something as simple as Forge. Forge is pretty dumbed down in that respect. Not that it doesn't totally work in its favor.
Yeah, there's definitely a publicity sacrifice with UEd, just as there's a functional sacrifice with Forge. What places are there available to distribute maps made on UEd?

And how or why did you start using UEd? Also, is it free?
The otters are coming with whiskers honed to razor blades.
Know this and fear.

Email me at xnoklu[at]gmail.com should you need to contact me.
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Re: What if your map doesn't work?

FuN Fortress
noklu wrote
Yeah, there's definitely a publicity sacrifice with UEd, just as there's a functional sacrifice with Forge. What places are there available to distribute maps made on UEd?

And how or why did you start using UEd? Also, is it free?
Well, I guess it's SORT of free, considering it comes with any copy of Unreal Tournament (though, I have it off disc and on storage on another site, so I just pull it off of there when I need a reinstall). UDK standalone is completely free, and recommend it. Now that I'm on a better laptop I'm going to get back into editing on that. As for places to distribute maps, I have no idea. EPIC Games' site would be a good place to start, I imagine.

HOW I started using UEd was with me simply poking around my UT folders for some files that were causing bugs when I first got the game. WHY I kept using it is because I simply love to build things.
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Re: What if your map doesn't work?

external memory
In reply to this post by icycoolx
Quit. Reassess priorities.
EXEM
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Re: What if your map doesn't work?

noklu
Administrator
In reply to this post by FuN Fortress
FuN Fortress wrote
noklu wrote
Yeah, there's definitely a publicity sacrifice with UEd, just as there's a functional sacrifice with Forge. What places are there available to distribute maps made on UEd?

And how or why did you start using UEd? Also, is it free?
Well, I guess it's SORT of free, considering it comes with any copy of Unreal Tournament (though, I have it off disc and on storage on another site, so I just pull it off of there when I need a reinstall). UDK standalone is completely free, and recommend it. Now that I'm on a better laptop I'm going to get back into editing on that. As for places to distribute maps, I have no idea. EPIC Games' site would be a good place to start, I imagine.

HOW I started using UEd was with me simply poking around my UT folders for some files that were causing bugs when I first got the game. WHY I kept using it is because I simply love to build things.
Wait, wait, wait: what's the difference between UDK and UEd?
The otters are coming with whiskers honed to razor blades.
Know this and fear.

Email me at xnoklu[at]gmail.com should you need to contact me.
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Re: What if your map doesn't work?

FuN Fortress
noklu wrote
Wait, wait, wait: what's the difference between UDK and UEd?
A lot, considering UEd comes with meshes and actor classes specific to Unreal 3 (or, I guess whatever Unreal you're working with) and UDK comes with classes and meshes both specific to itself and a tiny bit from Unreal 3. Plus, it can be a lot more taxing on your system than UEd3, considering all of the fancy new things that are included with it. Plus, again, it has a lot more features beyond making maps, where most of UEd's similar features were used pretty much just for mapping.
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Re: What if your map doesn't work?

mrgreenwithagun
In reply to this post by icycoolx
What if my map doesn't work?

I check to see if it came with a warranty... if not, I BURN ITTTTT!!!!!
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Re: What if your map doesn't work?

Randy 355
In reply to this post by icycoolx
Well, I only have made a few complete maps. There are only 2 directions my maps go. They're either complete, or forgotten about. I'll have you know that none of my maps haven't worked, because I always make them work. I got my map Deadwalk into Reach's matchmaking. Wasn't a fan favorite, and I even got a good bit of sour XBL messages. So, instead of leaving it as such, I worked harder to buff out the issues for the next update. The updated version is far superior than the original, all thanks to Cobb. People still aren't a fan necessarily, because I like soft kills and Boardwalk just isn't a good zombie map no matter what, but there were a good bit of silent fans as well.

Also, I had Powerless. The favorite of my two children, cause yes, it was totally fun. So I don't feel too bad.

...

What was this thread about?
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Re: What if your map doesn't work?

noklu
Administrator
Randy 355 wrote
What was this thread about?
What to do when your map doesn't work. So you're on topic :D

Randy 355 wrote
Well, I only have made a few complete maps. There are only 2 directions my maps go. They're either complete, or forgotten about. I'll have you know that none of my maps haven't worked, because I always make them work. I got my map Deadwalk into Reach's matchmaking. Wasn't a fan favorite, and I even got a good bit of sour XBL messages. So, instead of leaving it as such, I worked harder to buff out the issues for the next update. The updated version is far superior than the original, all thanks to Cobb. People still aren't a fan necessarily, because I like soft kills and Boardwalk just isn't a good zombie map no matter what, but there were a good bit of silent fans as well.

Also, I had Powerless. The favorite of my two children, cause yes, it was totally fun. So I don't feel too bad.
So if none of your maps haven't worked then why have you forgotten about maps?
The otters are coming with whiskers honed to razor blades.
Know this and fear.

Email me at xnoklu[at]gmail.com should you need to contact me.
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Re: What if your map doesn't work?

Randy 355
noklu wrote
So if none of your maps haven't worked then why have you forgotten about maps?
Well, I think it would suffice to say that they never left my notepad. The maps that did just simply faded as new projects arose.

Before I remade The Pit, I tried to make a spiritual successor to it. There were two tower structures, a defensible room, a downstairs room that looked a lot like the movie Tron... it was The Pit with my own twist on it. I tested it a few times with some success. It was fun, and the testing got me feedback that I could have utilized for a decent revision. In the end, I realized that I just wanted The Pit and then came Cyberdyne. So it just sits on my hard drive.

I also made a map called Sentinel. This can be viewed here. It was a map I made for the Forgetacular contest, and it was quite fun. I worked on it a bit after Forgetacular was done too. There were still kinks that needed to be worked out. Some good feedback and whatnot, but around that time I actually joined RP and moved onto other projects. I figured that map gave me valuable skills to create something a bit more unique. It seems most of my maps were inspired by other Halo maps now that I think back...

All of my created maps worked, they just never hit the main stage. That said, I didn't have a lot of maps... but I had a lot of revisions of the maps I did make. Like, a ton.
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Re: What if your map doesn't work?

noklu
Administrator
Okay, I see: so you make maps that work (or, better put, you make maps work) but sometimes you don't release them because they don't meet your release standard. Two standards: functional and release?
The otters are coming with whiskers honed to razor blades.
Know this and fear.

Email me at xnoklu[at]gmail.com should you need to contact me.
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Re: What if your map doesn't work?

Randy 355
noklu wrote
Okay, I see: so you make maps that work (or, better put, you make maps work) but sometimes you don't release them because they don't meet your release standard. Two standards: functional and release?
I suppose you could put it that way. It could be said that if it's functional, but not released, how well could it really work? The maps that weren't released lacked the polish and attention that I gave my released maps. When I release a map, I am looking for extensive feedback because I know it's something I really want to show off. When I get that extensive feedback, that is when my polishing begins.

You can find my Halo 4 remake of The Pit, Tartarus, on the internet from version 0.7 to its current iteration, version 1.21. Version 1.21 is far more accurate and beautiful than version 0.7, but version 0.7 did function enough for me to release to the public for broad feedback. And that really paid off.
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Re: What if your map doesn't work?

noklu
Administrator
I guess functional means that it works, at least to some extent. Release-ready is that final level of polish you're talking about. Whatever happens, I believe that multi-stage development is far superior to what so many people do: make one draft and then release it wherever. For forge, dump it on forgehub or waypoint or what have you. For writing, dumping on literary journals or competitions. For any creative endeavour, there are always those who draft and dump but never dig into the depths of their creation to make it all the better.
The otters are coming with whiskers honed to razor blades.
Know this and fear.

Email me at xnoklu[at]gmail.com should you need to contact me.
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